The Statewide Indigenous Forum initiated by the Aboriginal Justice Forum, the peak coordinating body for overseeing the development, implementation and direction of the Victorian Aboriginal Justice Agreement. The AJA recognised that, for it to succeed, Koori communities needed to be involved in decision making and delivering culturally appropriate justice services.
2000-2004 The Victorian Aboriginal Justice Agreement (AJA) is part of a broad policy by the Victorian Government to work in partnership with the Koori community. Its purpose is to tackle disadvantage and inequity, reduce Koori contact with the criminal justice system, and improve the justice process for Indigenous Victorians.
The second phase of the Victorian Aboriginal Justice Agreement Phase 2 (AJA2) represents a recommitment by the signatories to the AJA to build on the work of the first phase (launched in 2006) The Regional Aboriginal Justice Advisory Committee (RAJAC) was established in each of seven regions to help improve justice outcomes. 2006-2010 RAJAC Chairs are members of the Victorian Aboriginal Justice Advisory Committee (VAJAC), which in turn is represented at the Aboriginal Justice Forum (AJF), the peak body responsible for overseeing implementation of the AJA. After four years of operation, the AJA was reviewed and the Victorian Government and Koori signatories recommitted to a new phase, the Victorian Aboriginal Justice Agreement Phase
2 (AJA2).
2009 Wednesday 11 March "COMMUNIQUÉ" Presented by Victorian Aboriginal Community to the Victorian Government, There is some concern over the wording present by Victorian Aboriginal Community, It has been suggested the wording should read Presented by Victorian Incorporated Aboriginal Community. As the document has no signatories, although it does make mention for over 50 Aboriginal organisation that were invited to the Statewide Indigenous Forum.. (Whom attended is unknown to this writer, at this point in time )
Looking back to 1996, To when Aboriginal Embassy Victoria found urgent need to clarify, if The Victoria Government had the proper legislated power to makes Laws for peace order and good government for the Indigenous people of Victoria, and on the 26 August 1996 the Scrutiny of Acts and Regulations Committee E.O Helen M Mason, (in reply) wrote, "I am unaware of any Act which gives the Victorian Government the power to make Laws for peace order and good government for Indigenous people" Which clearly clarified the issue at hand.
The Department of Justice, tries to overcome the courts "No Jurisdiction" question, skillfully laid out the foundations for the "Koori Court project" Where the accused must acknowledge the court jurisdiction and plead guilty. in many case's acceptable. However when the offence has caused no harm., damage, loss of property, to any person or parties, "Victimless Crime" Aboriginal traditional religion, lore and must be considered and respected by the Court's.
Taken from Attorney-General, Rob Hulls (Foreword) "The Agreement would be nothing without the work people on the ground or without the work of those who have dedicated themselves to cementing the relationship that now exist between government and Koori communities, as. I look forward to discovering what more we can achieve when together, we engage work hard challenge each other and walk the path of genuine Reconciliation"
The above mention Treaty (Agreement) mainly relies on Regional Aboriginal Justice Advisory Communities (RAJAC.s) to hear the voice and concerns of the people residing with in their region, and in turn pass up to the Victorian Aboriginal Justice Advisory Committee, (VAJAC) whom then places the issues before the Victorian Aboriginal Justice Advisory Forum, (VAJAF) if approved, hands up to the Attorney-General, and other concerned Minister including the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs for consideration and response.
It appears, one of the major challengers ahead for RAJAC's, is reducing the rate of Indigenous adult incarceration which still remains unacceptable, and to prevent the younger population for coming in contact with the criminal justice system of Victoria. It may help to address the situation, if our traditional lore was revisited, explained to the younger generation and to the wider community, as simplicity is the most convent way to the truth.
As to assure confidence in this plan, RAJAC's officials must, with out their own personal feelings, understanding, or religious beliefs, acknowledge and respond to all matters raised by members of their region, as being done in the best interest and future well-being of the Aboriginal communities of Victoria.. and
"2. Commit to working work all levels of government to never again allow the mistakes of past government administrations that excluded indigenous input into policies for which generations of our people paid the price for." (Ref COMMUNIQUÉ 16-17 OCTOBER 2008)
Accountability is now a must for all of us.
Yours faithfully
Les McDonald
Chief Lore Officer
Saturday, November 7, 2009
Friday, September 18, 2009
Love and Law
Hi Sandra, In regards to news article in the Melbourne Age (14/09/09) by Lindsay Murdoch, It appears a that a young couple met at a sports meeting in 2006 at Papunya an Aboriginal community near the edge of the Northern Territory's western desert, and soon after applied for permission to marry, Under complex inter-marriage rules which Aboriginal people have abide by for centuries, as their skins were compatible, they were granted permission to marry which they did. Some time later the wife gave birth to a baby Boy.
As when soldiers and police start arriving in remote communities in 2007 under the intervention program, Like all proud mothers showed the baby to the Police, when asked, she proudly named her husband as the farther of the baby. The police then arrested him and he was placed in Jail many months. The Husband quite bewildered, had been informed that he could be sentenced to Jail for sixteen years for breaking the law. He was advised to plead guilty, which he did.
He appeared before Justice Southwood in the Supreme Court in Alice Springs. The Court referred to the husband as AK because he could not be identified. "Justice Southwood Said the case was difficult, but he recognised that a 14 years of age was too young for girls to be making decisions about sexual intercourse.
Judge Southwood acknowledged that Ak was sixteen years old at the time of the offence, and that AK was an impressive young man, with a good record and good work history, Justice Southwood, warned that "Young men in Aboriginal communities must learn that the wider community strongly disapprove of such relationship of such crimes. Justice Southwood convicted and sentenced AK two years and three months Jail.
I point out today in remote Aboriginal communities, the children are not registered at birth, and English is the third or fourth language. Traditional (law) Lore and religious is still maintained and practise in these outback communities. Lore of nature. When a girl turns in to a women then may wait for a mate?
In the communities mind nothing had been done Bad, they loved each other, had approval from both lots of parents and the community in general, they are married and have a baby, now it's our future and respect our Lore.
In his wisdom "Judge Southwood suspended the sentence forthwith, meaning the now convicted boy (AK) was released from custody and could legally be reunited with his wife,(now sixteen) and their son, in the world they know" ...Traditional Lore or ??
Consider the amount of time AK spent in prison, this causing unrest with the community, as reported " NT police would have turned a blind eye to the fact the boy had sexual intercourse with a fourteen girl because it accepted in aboriginal culture" It appears the case was to highlight the ongoing intervention program, is working?
If you consider the hardship and mental strain suffered by AK, his wife, family, and the wider aboriginal community, whom uphold their Lore, In fairness to all, I ask
1.Should AK be compensated for the time that he was in custody.
2.should Aboriginal Lore customs, religious believe be recognised by the Judicial system of Australia. if not why not.
Your Response greatly appreciated
Les McDonald
As when soldiers and police start arriving in remote communities in 2007 under the intervention program, Like all proud mothers showed the baby to the Police, when asked, she proudly named her husband as the farther of the baby. The police then arrested him and he was placed in Jail many months. The Husband quite bewildered, had been informed that he could be sentenced to Jail for sixteen years for breaking the law. He was advised to plead guilty, which he did.
He appeared before Justice Southwood in the Supreme Court in Alice Springs. The Court referred to the husband as AK because he could not be identified. "Justice Southwood Said the case was difficult, but he recognised that a 14 years of age was too young for girls to be making decisions about sexual intercourse.
Judge Southwood acknowledged that Ak was sixteen years old at the time of the offence, and that AK was an impressive young man, with a good record and good work history, Justice Southwood, warned that "Young men in Aboriginal communities must learn that the wider community strongly disapprove of such relationship of such crimes. Justice Southwood convicted and sentenced AK two years and three months Jail.
I point out today in remote Aboriginal communities, the children are not registered at birth, and English is the third or fourth language. Traditional (law) Lore and religious is still maintained and practise in these outback communities. Lore of nature. When a girl turns in to a women then may wait for a mate?
In the communities mind nothing had been done Bad, they loved each other, had approval from both lots of parents and the community in general, they are married and have a baby, now it's our future and respect our Lore.
In his wisdom "Judge Southwood suspended the sentence forthwith, meaning the now convicted boy (AK) was released from custody and could legally be reunited with his wife,(now sixteen) and their son, in the world they know" ...Traditional Lore or ??
Consider the amount of time AK spent in prison, this causing unrest with the community, as reported " NT police would have turned a blind eye to the fact the boy had sexual intercourse with a fourteen girl because it accepted in aboriginal culture" It appears the case was to highlight the ongoing intervention program, is working?
If you consider the hardship and mental strain suffered by AK, his wife, family, and the wider aboriginal community, whom uphold their Lore, In fairness to all, I ask
1.Should AK be compensated for the time that he was in custody.
2.should Aboriginal Lore customs, religious believe be recognised by the Judicial system of Australia. if not why not.
Your Response greatly appreciated
Les McDonald
Sunday, June 21, 2009
Whats that burning
Frying of Ian Ward
Ian Ward (the deceased) was a 46 year old Aboriginal male who died on 27 January 2008 at Kalgoorlie District Hospital, Kalgoorlie, in Western Australia At the time of his death the deceased was in custody, having been arrested by police in relation to traffic offences while driving a Toyota Personnel Carrier on Alderstone Street, Laverton, at about 9:30pm on Saturday 26 January 2008.
The following day the deceased was transported by employees of GSL Custodial Services Pty Ltd (GSL) in the back section of a van. The van was a Mazda E2500 vehicle registration number 1APR-049 The deceased was transported in the vehicle from Laverton to Kalgoorlie, a distance of approximately 360 kilometres. The deceased was taken on a journey of approximately 3 hours and 45 minutes on an extremely hot day with the outside temperatures being over 40oC. With no working air Conditioning
Evidence at the inquest subsequently revealed that the burn had been caused by contact between the deceased’s flesh and the metal steel pod in which he had been held in custody. At the hospital, Dr Lucien Lagrange, stated that as he opened the doors to the pod, although external conditions were very hot, the air from the van was "…like a blast from a furnace"
Based on the pathology evidence, there is no doubt that the deceased died as a result of being subjected to conditions of grossly excessive heat over an extended period of time. It is now clear that the deceased suffered a terrible death while in custody which was wholly unnecessary and avoidable.
Both Ms Stokoe and Mr Powell were contacted by telephone by Ms Jenkins late on the evening of 26 January 2008 and asked to transport a prisoner from Laverton to Kalgoorlie on the following day. They were to be paid at double time for working on a Sunday.
In would be within reason to assume both Ms. Stoke and Mr Powell had a duty of care towards Mr. Wards. As Mr Powell had been an insurance assessor for motor vehicles for 25 years, of the two, Mr Powell was far more experienced as a custodial officer as he had worked for either AIMS or GSL since 2001 and had been a supervisor for a period of time in 2003-4. Ms Stokoe had worked for GSL since April 2007. This was the first occasion on which she had worked as a custodial officer. She had previously worked as an industrial paramedic on a mine site and had some training qualifications to perform that role.
Time and experience has shown, that people given power over others, be it Police, custodial officer or others will at times abuser this authority, I personal feel that the W.A. courts should act according in punishing Mr. Powell and Ms. Stokes, as to show our public servants that this sort of conduct is no longer expectable by the majority of Australian’s.
Ian Ward (the deceased) was a 46 year old Aboriginal male who died on 27 January 2008 at Kalgoorlie District Hospital, Kalgoorlie, in Western Australia At the time of his death the deceased was in custody, having been arrested by police in relation to traffic offences while driving a Toyota Personnel Carrier on Alderstone Street, Laverton, at about 9:30pm on Saturday 26 January 2008.
The following day the deceased was transported by employees of GSL Custodial Services Pty Ltd (GSL) in the back section of a van. The van was a Mazda E2500 vehicle registration number 1APR-049 The deceased was transported in the vehicle from Laverton to Kalgoorlie, a distance of approximately 360 kilometres. The deceased was taken on a journey of approximately 3 hours and 45 minutes on an extremely hot day with the outside temperatures being over 40oC. With no working air Conditioning
Evidence at the inquest subsequently revealed that the burn had been caused by contact between the deceased’s flesh and the metal steel pod in which he had been held in custody. At the hospital, Dr Lucien Lagrange, stated that as he opened the doors to the pod, although external conditions were very hot, the air from the van was "…like a blast from a furnace"
Based on the pathology evidence, there is no doubt that the deceased died as a result of being subjected to conditions of grossly excessive heat over an extended period of time. It is now clear that the deceased suffered a terrible death while in custody which was wholly unnecessary and avoidable.
Both Ms Stokoe and Mr Powell were contacted by telephone by Ms Jenkins late on the evening of 26 January 2008 and asked to transport a prisoner from Laverton to Kalgoorlie on the following day. They were to be paid at double time for working on a Sunday.
In would be within reason to assume both Ms. Stoke and Mr Powell had a duty of care towards Mr. Wards. As Mr Powell had been an insurance assessor for motor vehicles for 25 years, of the two, Mr Powell was far more experienced as a custodial officer as he had worked for either AIMS or GSL since 2001 and had been a supervisor for a period of time in 2003-4. Ms Stokoe had worked for GSL since April 2007. This was the first occasion on which she had worked as a custodial officer. She had previously worked as an industrial paramedic on a mine site and had some training qualifications to perform that role.
Time and experience has shown, that people given power over others, be it Police, custodial officer or others will at times abuser this authority, I personal feel that the W.A. courts should act according in punishing Mr. Powell and Ms. Stokes, as to show our public servants that this sort of conduct is no longer expectable by the majority of Australian’s.
Tuesday, October 7, 2008
Letter to OPP (08/10/08
Office of Public Prosecutions
Ms. Raeleene Maxwell
565 Lonsdale St 8th October 2008
Melbourne VIC 3000
Dear Ms Raeleene Maxwell Re:Case No. X00340105
I write to bring to you attention a number of issue concerning this matter:-
Firstly, I received the Statement by M. A. Casley Senior Constable, plus photos, which. I thank you for.
Secondly, To make you aware that I have been disadva0ntaged by an error of judgement made at the Marybrough Court on the 8th April 2008, As the Magistrate may have erred in this ruling, as I reside closer to Marybrough and the Moligul property is where more major offence occurred. For your convenience I have enclosed copies of letter "complaint" dated:-
16Th July 2008 To Senior Registrar Stephen Merbach Ballarat, which highlights my reason for concern.
I feel aggrieved by the action of the Magistrate at the Marybrough Magistrates’ Court on the 8th April 2008, and at the St. Arnaud Magistrates Court. 22 May 2008. I trust that any further matters are dealt with in the appropriate Ballarat Court. not the Horsham Courts.
As you are aware of my position and role with in the Aboriginal community, I only ask to be given the same opportunity and courtesy given to others in our community, and as expected by the general public of Victoria.
Thirdly I have also enclosed herewith, a copy, of Sruntiny of Acts and Regulations Committee Executive Officer Helen M Mason, dated 26 August 1996, Which demonstrates the fact that the Victoria Government has no legislated Act, to make laws order and good government for the Indigenous People of Victoria. I note that Victorian Constitution Act 1975 No. 88750 does not mention the Aboriginal People at all.
Considering the time already elapsed, I ask have as yet obtain any documentation or evidence whatsoever that contradicts the above. It would be appreciated if you could forward copies of such at your most earliest moment.
Yours sincerely
Les McDonald
Ms. Raeleene Maxwell
565 Lonsdale St 8th October 2008
Melbourne VIC 3000
Dear Ms Raeleene Maxwell Re:Case No. X00340105
I write to bring to you attention a number of issue concerning this matter:-
Firstly, I received the Statement by M. A. Casley Senior Constable, plus photos, which. I thank you for.
Secondly, To make you aware that I have been disadva0ntaged by an error of judgement made at the Marybrough Court on the 8th April 2008, As the Magistrate may have erred in this ruling, as I reside closer to Marybrough and the Moligul property is where more major offence occurred. For your convenience I have enclosed copies of letter "complaint" dated:-
16Th July 2008 To Senior Registrar Stephen Merbach Ballarat, which highlights my reason for concern.
I feel aggrieved by the action of the Magistrate at the Marybrough Magistrates’ Court on the 8th April 2008, and at the St. Arnaud Magistrates Court. 22 May 2008. I trust that any further matters are dealt with in the appropriate Ballarat Court. not the Horsham Courts.
As you are aware of my position and role with in the Aboriginal community, I only ask to be given the same opportunity and courtesy given to others in our community, and as expected by the general public of Victoria.
Thirdly I have also enclosed herewith, a copy, of Sruntiny of Acts and Regulations Committee Executive Officer Helen M Mason, dated 26 August 1996, Which demonstrates the fact that the Victoria Government has no legislated Act, to make laws order and good government for the Indigenous People of Victoria. I note that Victorian Constitution Act 1975 No. 88750 does not mention the Aboriginal People at all.
Considering the time already elapsed, I ask have as yet obtain any documentation or evidence whatsoever that contradicts the above. It would be appreciated if you could forward copies of such at your most earliest moment.
Yours sincerely
Les McDonald
Monday, October 6, 2008
Need the answers to legal (2) issues
The following is (in part) letters to A-G.and his department responce, I feel the Attorney-General may not realise the importance of the questions put to him.
1st July 2008 Letter to Attorney-General Rob Hulls,." As advised, I now ask the Attorney-General, to clarify if the issue at hand,
1. Has the Victorian Parliament the proper legislated power to make laws for the Aboriginal People of Victoria, Considering that The Victorian Constitution Act 1975 does not mention the Aboriginal race of Victoria.
2. If the Courts Jurisdiction is question in the Magistrates Court, should the matter then be transferred to The Supreme Court of Victoria, to address the Jurisdiction issue.
3rd August 2008 To Attorney-General Rob Hulls, "Re: Courts Jurisdiction I write to bring to your attention that as yet I have not received any response to the Urgent issues raised in my Letter dated 1st July 2008".. "As this matter is most urgent and of growing public interest, it would be greatly appreciated if you attend to the matters raised at your earliest opportunity"
6th August 2008. From Attorney-General "We have received your correspondence of 1 July and your further letter of 3 August".." correspondence is referred to the Department of Justice for a response to be prepared. Due to the volume received and the work involved immediate responses cannot be provided" Yours sincerely, Lyn Malone,DLO Justice Office, Office of the Attorney-General
13 From the Department of Justice, Office of the Executive Director, Courts On behalf of Attorney-General Rob Hulls, You have requested that the Attorney-General clarify the following issues" (see 1. and 2 as 1st July 2008 ) "I note that you currently have a matter before the Magistrates' Court. The matters you raised are legal issues; neither the Attorney-General nor any public servant can provide you with legal advice about your mater.
signed JOHN GRIFFIN, PSM Executive Director, Courts
I point out, the only time people need to clarify Legal Issues is when the matter is before the Courts, It is very disappointing that the Attorney-General or no public servant can not provide this legal advice. Why is this so?
Is it because,
(a) The former Minister for Aboriginal Affairs Mr. Jennings. media release of dated Wednesday, 8 June 2005, made it know that "From July 1st ATSIC regional councils end and their will be no formal representative striation in Victoria for Government to hear the views of Indigenous People" or
(b) "The matters raised are legal issues; would that clarify that the Victorian Government has no power to make Laws for peace, order and Good Government for the aboriginal people of Victoria
Your personal comments would be greatly appreciated,
Your sincerely
Les McDonald
Chief Lore Officer
Aboriginal Embassy Victoria
1st July 2008 Letter to Attorney-General Rob Hulls,." As advised, I now ask the Attorney-General, to clarify if the issue at hand,
1. Has the Victorian Parliament the proper legislated power to make laws for the Aboriginal People of Victoria, Considering that The Victorian Constitution Act 1975 does not mention the Aboriginal race of Victoria.
2. If the Courts Jurisdiction is question in the Magistrates Court, should the matter then be transferred to The Supreme Court of Victoria, to address the Jurisdiction issue.
3rd August 2008 To Attorney-General Rob Hulls, "Re: Courts Jurisdiction I write to bring to your attention that as yet I have not received any response to the Urgent issues raised in my Letter dated 1st July 2008".. "As this matter is most urgent and of growing public interest, it would be greatly appreciated if you attend to the matters raised at your earliest opportunity"
6th August 2008. From Attorney-General "We have received your correspondence of 1 July and your further letter of 3 August".." correspondence is referred to the Department of Justice for a response to be prepared. Due to the volume received and the work involved immediate responses cannot be provided" Yours sincerely, Lyn Malone,DLO Justice Office, Office of the Attorney-General
13 From the Department of Justice, Office of the Executive Director, Courts On behalf of Attorney-General Rob Hulls, You have requested that the Attorney-General clarify the following issues" (see 1. and 2 as 1st July 2008 ) "I note that you currently have a matter before the Magistrates' Court. The matters you raised are legal issues; neither the Attorney-General nor any public servant can provide you with legal advice about your mater.
signed JOHN GRIFFIN, PSM Executive Director, Courts
I point out, the only time people need to clarify Legal Issues is when the matter is before the Courts, It is very disappointing that the Attorney-General or no public servant can not provide this legal advice. Why is this so?
Is it because,
(a) The former Minister for Aboriginal Affairs Mr. Jennings. media release of dated Wednesday, 8 June 2005, made it know that "From July 1st ATSIC regional councils end and their will be no formal representative striation in Victoria for Government to hear the views of Indigenous People" or
(b) "The matters raised are legal issues; would that clarify that the Victorian Government has no power to make Laws for peace, order and Good Government for the aboriginal people of Victoria
Your personal comments would be greatly appreciated,
Your sincerely
Les McDonald
Chief Lore Officer
Aboriginal Embassy Victoria
Wednesday, September 17, 2008
Public Jury. Verdict Point first point 1
U" Be The Judge, Re: Jurisdiction of the Courts, at Magistrate 22 May 200, Magistrate (Hon) Officer of Public Prosecution (Opp). Defendant (Def)
Court Transcript start at 00:00:00 at 00:00: 31 raised the of matter Jurisdiction:-
Hon. Because, because. if in fact their was going to be a challenge..to ah. .Jurisdiction ..it’s a challenge ..which will take place I would imagine would be in the County Court
Def. I was under the impression it would be the Supreme court
Opp. No
Stopped at 00:0048
Public Jury. Verdict Point first point 1
His Hon. Imagined that it would be in the Country, the Defendant it would be in the Supreme Court, and the OPP disagreed saying No.
Who is right, Now whom to you say is correct
4:1 start typing
and ends at (00:42:45
It will be of interest to note the many letters previouly post to Chief Magistrates and Departments requesting the matter of the Victorian Parliament and the Courts to clarify the qustion for Jurisdiction over the Aboriginal people of Victoria, which still has not been addressed. you may well ask why not,
Court Transcript start at 00:00:00 at 00:00: 31 raised the of matter Jurisdiction:-
Hon. Because, because. if in fact their was going to be a challenge..to ah. .Jurisdiction ..it’s a challenge ..which will take place I would imagine would be in the County Court
Def. I was under the impression it would be the Supreme court
Opp. No
Stopped at 00:0048
Public Jury. Verdict Point first point 1
His Hon. Imagined that it would be in the Country, the Defendant it would be in the Supreme Court, and the OPP disagreed saying No.
Who is right, Now whom to you say is correct
4:1 start typing
and ends at (00:42:45
It will be of interest to note the many letters previouly post to Chief Magistrates and Departments requesting the matter of the Victorian Parliament and the Courts to clarify the qustion for Jurisdiction over the Aboriginal people of Victoria, which still has not been addressed. you may well ask why not,
Court day 22 May 2008
Typed Transcript, Hosrham Magistrates’ Court 22 May 2008
As the Office of Public Prosecution, Ms. Raeleene Maxwell after a brief conversation with the Defendant, explained that she would have to get the matter adjourned, as she had been shown evidence that supported the Defendants claim, "no Jurisdiction over aboriginal People" Ms Maxwell requested the adjournment, His honour told her wait and proceed to
engage issues with the defendant, the opening of the court disk recording unfortunately does not include the opening remarks by Ms. Maxwell as starts at:- 00:00:00
OPP. challengers the constitution, and whether or not (int)
Hon. As I understand it ..their is some evidence in the community. ah ah he is the Chief Justice of the of the Aboriginal Embassy
Opp. I’m just finding out those matters ..I was just having a conversation with him. when I was called into court
Hon I don’t know if those matters have really much to do with this
Opp. No
Hon. Because, because. if in fact their was going to be a challenge..to ah. .Jurisdiction ..it’s a challenge ..which will take place I would imagine would be in the County Court
Def. I was under the impression it would be the Supreme court
Opp. No
Hon. No its no.. I notice in your correspondence you refer to fact the issue should be dealt with in the high court... ah ..that not the case, this is state legislation ..that is not the case, this is state legislation, and is not a matter that goes with the commonwealth constitution or it interpretation, there for it doesn't start live in the High Court ..in fact is the constitution doesn't deal with jurisdiction over indigenous persons, .in fact includes indigenous persons that... the Victorian constitution act ..relates to all person in Victoria
Def. My point is that (int)
Hon. taat.. that a point you are entitled to if you like to raise at some stage it seams to me that some thing like that should take place in the County Court not here
Def. I have no objections to that sir but the Victoria constitution does not mention the word aboriginal in any way whatsoever (int)
Hon. right there is nothing to distinguish the origin of one person for another whether male or female whether or regional of what ever race of what ever origin race ...the constitution act gives power to the parliament to enact legislation for good government of all persons in Victoria.
Def. the Victorian constitution acts relates to all the states in 1975 all the Aboriginal affairs were put under the federal government. Victoria the only state that maintains it’s own power since 1975 to make laws for peace order and good government for Aboriginal people, the first constitution was made 1874 and the one we taking about 1975, now the point that have to raise on behalf of a lot people because is doesn't presciently say the aboriginal people. The Australian Constitution will mention the word Aboriginal people, I’m not sure what .. what section it’s under, but is there, but the Victorian Constitution fails to mention the rightful possessors of the people, the aboriginal people (int)
Def. yeap
Hon. nether that nor the constitutions apply ..to any .. persific ..persons described by religion racial origin colour our any other matter they apply equal to all person in Victoria and that is the end the end of the matter
Def Right I (Int)
Def. The point is and I must ask as I am required to get a clarification is if the Constitution covers the aboriginal people (int)
Hon. that why that why it would be properly be ah ah fortified ah ah the it be a benefit to you to raise this issue in the County Court, you follow
Def. well I I...I got a letter here date 1996, the prosecution .. if I could just read it out you like to see it
Hon. I’v I’v read the whole lot ...yes.
Def. it’s.. from the Scrutiny of Acts and Regulations Committee I wrote 26 August 1996,. she apologise for the delay in responding, " I am afraid I am not able to be assistance to you, I am unaware of any act which gives the Victorian Government the power to make laws for peace, order and good government for indigenous people" that was in 1996. your Honour, and what’s happened I’ve kept it very quite, I've ask the Government, if there is any doubt over the law take it back to Parliament to clarify the law, ..(int)
Hon. was that the 26 August I’v got a letter here 8th August
Def. that might be my letter to the her, Regulations Committee
Hon. got one 19th August ...
Def, this is from Scrutiny of Acts and Regulations Committee from them to me at Church Avenue
Hon. Yes this is Church Avenue
Def does that say.. that the point I mean I don’t want people using this point if there done something wrong hurt some one drove a car or punched some one in the heads or something like that, it’s just to do with our natural being, we believe...
Hon. I don’t know if that helps you.. I don’t know if you should repeat that sort of term, because that may undermine your position, you can say what ever you want, I think for the purpose of future issues I don’t think I used that term of acknowledge
Def. I think you advice except sir
Def . I need the prosecution to, as the position that I find myself in.. I am told to ask the prosecution, I need the act that gives the Victorian Government the power to make laws for the Aboriginal people. it’s simple
Hon. that’s thats one .you see your not going to get an act which makes it simple, unfortunately, laws are produce in the terms of statuary which are designed to be confusing, created with great difficulty for those proposed to interpret them. follow
Def. My question with that..has the question of Jurisdiction, can I be put that, I am clear in the mind. with the peoples interest, has the court jurisdiction over the Aboriginal people of Victoria, the Victorian constitution has let me down it can’t be required, the letter I had sent to the committee, in 1996 (int)
Hon. Ive, Ive got to say Mr McDonald, if you argument was successful then the constitution Acts ...would in fact let down the rest of the population of Victoria, (yes) because it would mean ah ah the legislation somehow is able to discriminate between persons in Victoria,. You follow, and that would (yeah) be an unacceptable result
Def. The problem that I’ve got regarding the people, is that they weren't here, the Aboriginals weren’t here, this goes back a long way, you know, and that’s why they never got recognised in the constitution, because the constitution couldn't recognise em (int)
Hon. Mr. McDonald , Lets sort of lexical for a moment, if you take that argument to the extreme, I am sure persons ah with different racial ah religious backgrounds in thoes days, you follow (emm) that is person ..Asian origin ...person of .south American orgin north American origin, you follow (emm) all in Victoria represented at that time (yeah) represented by one person right (yeah) but you got to address that the constitution applies to them, there are Aboriginals is Victoria at that time, (emm) the constitution applies to them, there is no base for differentiate between them (ok then) the application of the legislation achieved by the constitution to any specific person rather it applies to the whole that’s
Def. That’s thats the point, the objective is that the aboriginal people are a nation within side a nation you agree (ok) do you agree with that (Mr McDonald)
Hon. Now Mr.McDomald your not.. not going, your not going to get me involved with (int)
Def. I like to debate that with you..
Hon. Unfortunately Mr. McDonald ah....gone thru this now ah a few to many times (right) so regretfully got to move on for their is other people (unclear) Stop OO:37:07 ends (00:42:45)
Adjourned till 16 October2008 Horsham Magistartes Court
As the Office of Public Prosecution, Ms. Raeleene Maxwell after a brief conversation with the Defendant, explained that she would have to get the matter adjourned, as she had been shown evidence that supported the Defendants claim, "no Jurisdiction over aboriginal People" Ms Maxwell requested the adjournment, His honour told her wait and proceed to
engage issues with the defendant, the opening of the court disk recording unfortunately does not include the opening remarks by Ms. Maxwell as starts at:- 00:00:00
OPP. challengers the constitution, and whether or not (int)
Hon. As I understand it ..their is some evidence in the community. ah ah he is the Chief Justice of the of the Aboriginal Embassy
Opp. I’m just finding out those matters ..I was just having a conversation with him. when I was called into court
Hon I don’t know if those matters have really much to do with this
Opp. No
Hon. Because, because. if in fact their was going to be a challenge..to ah. .Jurisdiction ..it’s a challenge ..which will take place I would imagine would be in the County Court
Def. I was under the impression it would be the Supreme court
Opp. No
Hon. No its no.. I notice in your correspondence you refer to fact the issue should be dealt with in the high court... ah ..that not the case, this is state legislation ..that is not the case, this is state legislation, and is not a matter that goes with the commonwealth constitution or it interpretation, there for it doesn't start live in the High Court ..in fact is the constitution doesn't deal with jurisdiction over indigenous persons, .in fact includes indigenous persons that... the Victorian constitution act ..relates to all person in Victoria
Def. My point is that (int)
Hon. taat.. that a point you are entitled to if you like to raise at some stage it seams to me that some thing like that should take place in the County Court not here
Def. I have no objections to that sir but the Victoria constitution does not mention the word aboriginal in any way whatsoever (int)
Hon. right there is nothing to distinguish the origin of one person for another whether male or female whether or regional of what ever race of what ever origin race ...the constitution act gives power to the parliament to enact legislation for good government of all persons in Victoria.
Def. the Victorian constitution acts relates to all the states in 1975 all the Aboriginal affairs were put under the federal government. Victoria the only state that maintains it’s own power since 1975 to make laws for peace order and good government for Aboriginal people, the first constitution was made 1874 and the one we taking about 1975, now the point that have to raise on behalf of a lot people because is doesn't presciently say the aboriginal people. The Australian Constitution will mention the word Aboriginal people, I’m not sure what .. what section it’s under, but is there, but the Victorian Constitution fails to mention the rightful possessors of the people, the aboriginal people (int)
Def. yeap
Hon. nether that nor the constitutions apply ..to any .. persific ..persons described by religion racial origin colour our any other matter they apply equal to all person in Victoria and that is the end the end of the matter
Def Right I (Int)
Def. The point is and I must ask as I am required to get a clarification is if the Constitution covers the aboriginal people (int)
Hon. that why that why it would be properly be ah ah fortified ah ah the it be a benefit to you to raise this issue in the County Court, you follow
Def. well I I...I got a letter here date 1996, the prosecution .. if I could just read it out you like to see it
Hon. I’v I’v read the whole lot ...yes.
Def. it’s.. from the Scrutiny of Acts and Regulations Committee I wrote 26 August 1996,. she apologise for the delay in responding, " I am afraid I am not able to be assistance to you, I am unaware of any act which gives the Victorian Government the power to make laws for peace, order and good government for indigenous people" that was in 1996. your Honour, and what’s happened I’ve kept it very quite, I've ask the Government, if there is any doubt over the law take it back to Parliament to clarify the law, ..(int)
Hon. was that the 26 August I’v got a letter here 8th August
Def. that might be my letter to the her, Regulations Committee
Hon. got one 19th August ...
Def, this is from Scrutiny of Acts and Regulations Committee from them to me at Church Avenue
Hon. Yes this is Church Avenue
Def does that say.. that the point I mean I don’t want people using this point if there done something wrong hurt some one drove a car or punched some one in the heads or something like that, it’s just to do with our natural being, we believe...
Hon. I don’t know if that helps you.. I don’t know if you should repeat that sort of term, because that may undermine your position, you can say what ever you want, I think for the purpose of future issues I don’t think I used that term of acknowledge
Def. I think you advice except sir
Def . I need the prosecution to, as the position that I find myself in.. I am told to ask the prosecution, I need the act that gives the Victorian Government the power to make laws for the Aboriginal people. it’s simple
Hon. that’s thats one .you see your not going to get an act which makes it simple, unfortunately, laws are produce in the terms of statuary which are designed to be confusing, created with great difficulty for those proposed to interpret them. follow
Def. My question with that..has the question of Jurisdiction, can I be put that, I am clear in the mind. with the peoples interest, has the court jurisdiction over the Aboriginal people of Victoria, the Victorian constitution has let me down it can’t be required, the letter I had sent to the committee, in 1996 (int)
Hon. Ive, Ive got to say Mr McDonald, if you argument was successful then the constitution Acts ...would in fact let down the rest of the population of Victoria, (yes) because it would mean ah ah the legislation somehow is able to discriminate between persons in Victoria,. You follow, and that would (yeah) be an unacceptable result
Def. The problem that I’ve got regarding the people, is that they weren't here, the Aboriginals weren’t here, this goes back a long way, you know, and that’s why they never got recognised in the constitution, because the constitution couldn't recognise em (int)
Hon. Mr. McDonald , Lets sort of lexical for a moment, if you take that argument to the extreme, I am sure persons ah with different racial ah religious backgrounds in thoes days, you follow (emm) that is person ..Asian origin ...person of .south American orgin north American origin, you follow (emm) all in Victoria represented at that time (yeah) represented by one person right (yeah) but you got to address that the constitution applies to them, there are Aboriginals is Victoria at that time, (emm) the constitution applies to them, there is no base for differentiate between them (ok then) the application of the legislation achieved by the constitution to any specific person rather it applies to the whole that’s
Def. That’s thats the point, the objective is that the aboriginal people are a nation within side a nation you agree (ok) do you agree with that (Mr McDonald)
Hon. Now Mr.McDomald your not.. not going, your not going to get me involved with (int)
Def. I like to debate that with you..
Hon. Unfortunately Mr. McDonald ah....gone thru this now ah a few to many times (right) so regretfully got to move on for their is other people (unclear) Stop OO:37:07 ends (00:42:45)
Adjourned till 16 October2008 Horsham Magistartes Court
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